We move on to the second presentation, which will
be given by Mr. Francisco Jorge Leira Castiñeira,
from the Carlos Tercero University.
Hey, are you going to talk to us about the historiographical
renewal of armed conflicts in the 19th century, huh?
Francisco Leira Castiñeira is a professor at Carlos III University of Madrid.
After going through different centers,
in which we highlight the College of Dublin or Dublin.
And he has a very specific characteristic, which is that he
is a historian with a body of work, right? We highlight three
books written by him: Soldiers of Franco, Forced Recruitment,
War Experience and Military Demobilization.
21st century in the year 2020.
This book is the result of a prize he won for his doctoral thesis, eh!
The success of this text led him to write The Nobodies of the Spanish War Akal,
2022.
A book very well received by the audience, like the first one, huh?
And right now he is already working on the second edition of his latest book,
Portraits of the Transition, The memory we hid in the attic,
published at the beginning of this year by Editorial Siglo 21.
Therefore, we are also here.
Author
which we can study in itself because
it has its own audience, because
it is a successful young historian
and I also want to, uh, allow me to
show, uh, my special pride, because,
mmm, I was a bad teacher of
Francisco Loira.
I still remember that paper you handed me about how wonderful it is, huh?
In two authors, eh
eh, which I loved.
The thing is, he writes very well, he's a
successful historian, and the only thing I
feel for him, as I've told him before, is a lot
of envy because I haven't achieved the same.
Thank you so much for agreeing to be here, Francisco.
And today he is going to talk to us, as I have already said, about the renewal of
South Africa, about the armed conflicts in the 19th century.
Well, first of all, thank you very much for the presentation you gave me.
It has also touched me coming from you, who as you have said
has been my teacher and I have to acknowledge that a great
teacher and also on a personal level you have helped me a
lot in very complicated moments of my academic career
which as we have discussed before, is an obstacle course
and always having that help from someone who pushes you,
not in some way with encouragement yes, but also with
a lot of effort, is always appreciated.
And then, many thanks to the organization for the invitation.
It is a pleasure for me to be in this house and to be able
to talk about something that touches, although
tangentially, on my research, but that
touches on my research and also a part of my
of mine,
let's say.
Concerns as a historian, what role can we play in
this case towards civil society and the novel, in this case fiction.
Both the historical novel in this case, as well as
film, theater (which my colleague mentioned), and
any other form of media, like comics or any cultural
aspect that can disseminate history, seem fundamental
to me, and that's more or less what I'm going to focus
on, as Israel mentioned. My background is more in
the 20th century, which I've studied in different
periods, from the Civil War to the Transition,
talking about European wars. Well, the 19th century
isn't exactly my area of ​​study, but that doesn't
mean that many of the aspects I've studied, mainly
in the field of historiography, don't apply.
Are you now thinking about how to approach the intervention?
Yes, to talk first about what the vision is,
let's say, of the influence of the new
historiography on armed conflicts or on what
is known as WAR, is it within the
works of the 19th century or vice versa?
I've decided to do it the other way around.
If we analyze it, we all know what the historiographical process is like.
We start from the 19th century, in which there is a history
deeply linked to the process of nation-building.
There we have, then, several fundamental works,
such as those of the National Episodes of Benito
Pérez Galdós, in which there are several fundamental
works on, let's say, war conflicts.
We are talking about Juan Martín, El
Empecinado, Gerona about, let's say,
the sieges in the war of independence,
the sieges of Zaragoza, let's say March
19 and May 2 about the uprising of Aranjuez
and of and of and of of Madrid, Trafalgar.
But I would perhaps highlight one work which, as you will see, is
the one that can, let's say, bring us closer, let's say in this case.
For me, Benito Pérez Galdós is one of those
who has best been able to show in a work what
is currently being studied within the
studies of war, which is one more rebel and
a few less friars from the one of '79.
It is perhaps one of the less fundamental works, but in
which he really shows that political reaction, that
social violence that appears in later periods and helps
to understand that continuity between the war of
independence and then the internal polarization that
existed in 19th century Spain with the arrival of Ferdinand VII.
And I find it interesting because of that
analysis of violence, which is one of the
fundamental aspects on which studies of
violence and war are currently focused,
because we begin to analyze works such as
Summa, Summa, the Summa, the one about the
Carlist War, who is one of the great, let's
say, leaders of the Carlist movement, who
is later deeply vindicated during the
Civil War, well, it focuses more on those
studies, let's say more on those novels,
let's say more, more classic ones, we can
cite Oñate and Grand and the great La Granja
or La Granja, and which more or less focus
within that attempt to build a national
state in which historiography is also very much linked.
So, in the case of Benito Pérez Galdós, the existing
historiography at that time, the way of doing history
with, let's say, the sample we have and the work
that Pérez Galdós did are very, very related.
Another author I wanted to mention is Ramón
Valle-Inclán, who is one of the great writers of the 19th century.
He has the trilogy about the Carlist war as the glow
of the bonfire, the gyrfalcons of yesteryear, the
Court of Miracles and in this case, any of the three,
also approach those two aspects, let's say, of
violence, mentalities, moral aspects, ideological
aspects that influence a Carlist war and that I think
is very, very interesting, because, let's say, it
goes a step beyond what was actually done, within
what is the more traditional military history.
Then there is Pío Baroja with Sala Caín and the
adventurer, which here is already, let's say, a
vision of a character who carries out, within the
context of the War of Independence, a kind of adventure.
That is, this idea of ​​war as an adventure is captured by Pío Baroja in
many
of his books, including The Adventurer's Route, a
trilogy published at the beginning of the 20th century.
And I think that in some way it's in tune
with what was being written.
Therefore, some of the texts cited by Benito Pérez
Galdós, as well as by Ramón Valle-Inclán.
I think they escape more from that traditional
history of the military world that was written in that context.
However, we might think that after the, let's
say, radical change in the way of doing history,
in which other subdisciplines of history such
as social history, cultural history, the
history of mentalities, begin to get involved
in the analysis of war contexts, both analyzing
the rearguard as well as analyzing the
battlefront, we might think that it could have
had some kind of influence on the new books.
And yet, what we find, for example, when we look
at one of the most relevant or best-selling
authors, or rather, one of the most important
figures in contemporary literature, Arturo
Pérez Reverte, is that we find historical novels
in which he depicts a war that, curiously, is very
little related to the type of war he may
have experienced as a war correspondent.
I speak as, for example, a day of anger, which
is perhaps the best, in which certain real and
anonymous characters, well, they go on
analyzing their, their, their, their, their
trajectory during the war, also of
independence and is possibly the best.
But there are also many aspects there that fall
within the commonplaces of war, that is, the
analysis of war as something heroic, as an
adventure, as something highly ideologized
by the people who work in the conflict, both
civil society and people who participate in
militias or regular armies, and who fall into certain commonplaces.
Cape Trafalgar, published in 2002, is, let's
say, follows that idea, even though he tries
in some way to approach some of the novels of
Benito Pérez Galdós, of his national episodes.
I think that really no, they don't even reach
the literary quality from the opinion of a simple
reader, nor in terms of the subject matter.
Therefore, this is, let's say, what we have today: two people
who, for me, do have, let's say, a slightly more open, more
complete vision, in which politics, society
and culture come into play to analyze the war.
Similarly, Valle-Inclán, with a more aesthetic, tragic,
and symbolic vision of the Carlist Wars, but rather his
Baroja trilogy, let's say there are many more topics such as the
the idea of ​​the
of the adventurous man in a war episode and then as a more
contemporary author, Pérez Reverte, well, he falls,
let's say, into many of those clichés about those episodes
of the 20th century, the aforementioned town, those two days of anger.
But one cannot speak of the siege of Cadiz in 1916.
Then we can cite other authors, such as María
Reyes and the thousand names of freedom, who
speaks of 1915, that is, let's say, of that post-war
period which is one of the aspects that the new
historiography on the war, well, is increasingly
giving and perhaps is also a little, let's say,
more complete, but when it begins to delve into
what is, let's say, the warlike aspects that
exist, let's say, in those, let's say, realities
of those, in those, let's say, topics that fall at that time.
It is true that when he analyzes the post-war period, those
social, political, and ideological aspects are a bit broader
than those of Pérez Reverte. But let's say, not yet, there is
not, let's say, for me, a relationship between what is written
within the world of history and what is written within the world of literature.
And to mention last, uh, Ildefonso
Falcones with "slave of liberty".
Perhaps it is a more social story about, say, the Spanish
colonial world of the mid-19th century, in this case in Cuba,
and in which it speaks of that structural violence of slavery, social and racial
conflict.
And indeed, it broadens that focus on the violence of the Spanish empire.
And I think it's one of the most recommended
books for people who are more fond of this, let's say, war literature.
However, if we analyze, say, this historiographical
renewal that is taking place in the military world,
well, there really is a substantial change, huh?
It began, let's say, with an analysis of the battles, the
campaigns, the analysis of the generals, of the strategies.
It is very much linked to that, let's say, to
that relationship of the context of the creation
of nation states in which when they spoke of the
generals or even the soldiers, well, there was
that ideological idea, that idea of ​​nation
in all of them, when it is very difficult that
all those who were participating in the war
conflicts could defend a similar idea.
And currently, what is being defended and studied
is, let's say, a more social, more cultural, less
political study, and delving into the more
emotional aspects and holistic memory as well.
That is, how do we remember the war, what were the
consequences of the war in the post-war period,
and what remains of the war, let's say, in the later periods.
When we analyze, for example, the post-war period, those
of the Carlist War that were later used in Carlist propaganda
to try to mobilize society in that context.
However, these aspects remain, let's say, a little more,
they are not reflected as much either in the literature
of the time, nor in current literature.
Possibly also due to public interest, we cannot forget that.
However, I believe that analyzing these
novel aspects within the field of war
studies, which is the field I work in,
would give rise to a much more interesting
fiction, and that, for example, in the
case of the civil wars of the 20th century
or the world wars of the 20th century,
it is indeed being incorporated.
Well, I think, for example, of the world of cinema, because it's an endless trench
where repression is discussed, where the role of a person and how they suffer in
that context is discussed.
warlike or more
in the world wars, as Dunkirk can be an example.
In 1916, if I'm not mistaken, which is Christopher Nolan's
other film, if I'm not mistaken, he also analyzes that social aspect.
Let's go to the Band of Brothers series.
It is one of the great examples of how that
war can be analyzed from a perspective that
I think within 19th-century fiction there
are, let's say, few books that focus on it
from such a social and raw perspective.
I'm talking about, for example, the Thin Red Line, which
was published some time ago, and which is, if I'm not
mistaken, contemporary with Saving Private Ryan.
And they are, let's say, two different views of
the same phenomenon, which is the phenomenon of
war, in which on the one hand the emotional aspect
of a diversity of characters who participate in
that context is analyzed, while in the other
case, discounting the part of the Normandy landing.
Then what we see is the typical story that
could be told during the Cold War period
with deeply, let's say, ideological
undertones and, let's say, a vindication
of the Nation based on, in this case, its
citizens, which to a certain extent is what
much of the historiography is based on.
If we focus on the historiographical renewal within the military
field, there are several names that must be mentioned.
The first is Michael Howard and his book
The Case of the World and Another in six,
and in which he began to talk about how
war had to illuminate the relationship
between ideas between men and ideas
between war and social and other social
forces and between the present and historical roots.
That is, it has a fundamental methodological and
intellectual novelty and it departs, let's say,
from that, let's say, militaristic, classical
position, and tries to focus it within a much more
interesting political and social perspective.
Perhaps it is one of the least known and least
celebrated works within those that discuss this new military history.
It's not a term I like.
I believe that military history has
objectives and a clear methodology, and
it is the one that has been implemented throughout this era.
And what we have now is, let's say, a social history of wartime contexts.
In the same way that there is a social history of the world of work,
a social history of the rural world, a social history of, let's say,
the world of, uh, the transition or other periods.
In other words, we cannot talk about methodological
renewals, implementing them in a new discipline
that already has, let's say, its own methodology,
but rather about social, cultural, political,
and ideological contexts, and analyzing them
from a new historical methodology.
In this case, the key book, and the one in which he
is most championed, is that of John Keegan, who
transformed, from within, the point of view of
war in his book on phases of battle and argued that
military history, in this case, had to be
reconstructed for him. This is not an opinion I
don't consider from the concrete experience of
those who fought, because at the point of greatest
danger, that is, on the battlefield, understanding
the emotions of those combatants, not so much from
a general perspective, but also trying to do it
from a much broader perspective. That is, trying
to explain what it really meant to fight in Angkor,
in Waterloo, in the Zoom, and doing it from a very broad perspective.
Let's say that this book by Vatel is the basis on which many of
the great new developments in the study of war are based.
Huh? Let's say the focus shifted; it
began to talk about the combatant who
initially seemed to be that person, uh,
who left his life behind and in some way,
well, in a selfless way and for, uh, for
the nation, at first the 19 appeared and
then for a specific ideology, they fought
to the death and began to study, well,
their doubts, their emotions, their true ideology.
To sociologically analyze how the military
contingents were composed and, in some way,
to study the history of bodies, which is also
very much within gender studies, to study
fear, which is very important.
It is essential to introduce part of the methodology of
social psychology, the role of noise, which is something
I have analyzed while working with a colleague who is a PhD in psychology.
As the noise then psychologically affects
all ex-combatants, the disorientation
within the battle context, as well as after
the battle context, the proximity of death,
the physical experience of combat, and
therefore let's say it changed the way of seeing that.
The history of armed conflicts not so
much from the perspective of the General
Staff Table, which is where it was
studied, but from the actual line of fire.
Huh? Another key author is Martín, who in this
case did focus more on the military organization,
less, let's say, on the social aspect.
Therefore, for me, he is an author who doesn't interest me
that much and whom I haven't used much in my studies, neither
when I've tried to escape, nor when I've organized and
edited books on the civil wars of the 20th century, because
he focuses more on administration, resources, discipline,
technology, supply chains, and perhaps the most interesting
part is the part about discipline, in which, without going
so far as to use aspects that seem fundamental to understanding
discipline within armies and that in some way help, let's
say, to understand the behavior of the combatants who are.
Ultimately, the ultimate goal, let's say, of
the study of historiographical renewal within
war studies, does not apply to the theories of
authors that I consider fundamental.
First, obviously, there is Michel Foucault
and his classic book that, let's say, is
the one that uses most of them.
But we could also talk about Erwin Hoffmann.
Wilford maintains a book called Asylums, which
talks more about, let's say, the centers of,
let's say, psychiatric, but that idea of ​​a
total institution in which there is absolute
control of what any author, any, let's say,
combatant or member who belongs to that total
institution does, can be perfectly applied to war today.
If we analyze the wars of the 19th century,
examining the texts of Manuel San Tirso de
Pedro Brújula de Manuel Chus, among many
others, we see that the discipline aspect,
both in the 19th and 20th centuries, is
fundamental; that is, there is absolute
control over what the combatant
does, which in some way also determines his behavior.
Hence the distinction that this new historiography
on armed conflicts attempts to make: to analyze the
differences between behavior and, let's say,
agency. And that often this agency is determined
by the degree of discipline and control that exists
over the combatants, but then this lack of agency
does not determine what their behavior, their
positioning, their thinking, their emotions are
when they are in armed conflict. That is, what leads
a combatant to fight? Well, there are different
aspects that have been analyzed from the perspective
of the history of social psychology.
In this case, well, I have, let's say, an article that
deals with that and in which, well, the texts of Albert
Gelman are very useful, for example, in this sense, and
I think that these are aspects that are more interesting
to me if they are analyzed, if, let's say, historical
novels appeared, obviously they would be the historical novels that I would read.
The problem is that I don't read historical novels
about my research topic, because they really lack that value.
Another author who needs to be cited is José.
The Emmons.
He's a Jewish historian.
It is important to mention that he is Jewish because of one of the
books he published, which is about the nationalization of the
masses in Germany, but he also has a book that is fundamental to
understanding the culture of war, as he calls it, and it is called Fallen Soldier
Soldiers.
I believe there is already a Spanish translation
of Empresas Universitarias de Zaragoza PIN de
Memory of the World, in which he calls, or rather
called, the myth of the experience of war, that is,
a vision of war that hid its horror, sacralized its
memory and gave it a superior meaning within the nation.
In other words, what Jorge Lemos tries to do is analyze
that myth of the war experience that was in the
historiography that was done within the 19th century,
not about the current 19th century, in which, well, all
these aspects of horror, of combat, of the role of the
combatant, were, let's say, hidden within that superior idea that was the nation.
Moss's great innovation was to show that the war did not end on
the front lines, it continued in public memory, and that is
fundamental to understanding it in relation to nationalism,
rituals, and the masculinity that remained after the conflict.
This masculinity arose within the context of the war and had
its continuity. It was a masculinity, let's say, different
from that which was socialized among people who were not yet
combatants and who, when they returned, ceased to be combatants
and returned to real life. It was different, but they maintained it.
And then that legitimization of violence in
the end, the war, if that is characterized
by anything, it is by violence.
In the violence against the enemy, an enemy
that is created, that is, that idea of ​​one
against the other, it already exists.
almost theorized
in the 19th century and it is something that continued throughout the 19th
century.
That is, the dehumanization of the enemy.
He tries to analyze it and see how that collective memory continues
and then that sacralization of the soldier, that brutal
indoctrination of, let's say, the politics that exists in that
period and that can be seen, let's say, with all the tributes that
there are, both from the 19th and 20th centuries, to the fallen soldier.
It is true that the idea of ​​the unknown soldier
is typical of the First World War, but let's
say that the collective memory of the great
generals is something that is present in all
the squares of our, of our, of our State.
And this, let's say, is typical of a type of conception
of armed conflicts that the new history of armed
conflicts tries to eliminate, therefore, the
methodology of military history with cultural
history and then the analysis of fascism, which is
what interests him most, but this is being applied.
The new studies of war in authors such as those I have cited,
the one cited to Manuel San Tirso, to cite Elena Hernández
for the studies of Carlism, to Francisco, capisce?
And also on the studies of Carlism, on the first,
on, let's say, the conflicts of the war of independence.
Álvaro París. Pedro Rojo. La.
In short, he is seeing, let's say, a change in Spain and
then outside, for example, Matilde de Greiff on the
Napoleonic Wars, who in some way focuses more on the
role of the soldier than on the role, let's say, of the
conflict itself or of the generals who accompanied Napoleon.
That is, biographies about Napoleon, about.
In my opinion, however.
There are very few biographies about soldiers from the Napoleonic Wars.
And that can also be applied to the 20th century.
Then, seeing dead bodies or births, he
explained and wrote a fundamental book about
the use of Hitler's army during the Civil War.
So there he talks about how brutal the soldiers are, and
that's something that appears reflected in many books
by people from that century, and he applies it to the 19th
century, and I think it's fundamental if we talk later,
if we talk about why the soldiers talk. I've said that what
determines a war is violence, but the other thing that
determines it is the role of the combatant, and he only has
one thing to do in a war, which is to kill; that's his only
objective, because otherwise what he's going to do is get killed.
So, he's a combatant in a war, does he do that?
No, he doesn't think, let's say, about the nation, he thinks about survival.
And in this case, well, John Burke's book, Intimate
History of Killing, which analyzes different war
contexts, and then those war contexts are World
War II, the Vietnam War, and I don't
remember what the other war is, eh?
It makes connections with and from 19th-century
contexts, as it is very fundamental, as it also
analyzes the role of the body, emotions,
masculinity, and everyday violence.
And I think it's one of the books. Of course.
And then there is a growing concern about the
relationship between war and paramilitarism
in some cases, or post-war violence
and the post-war period.
It seems that in historiography a kind of
idea has been applied in which the war ends
when the historian says so, that is, the First
World War or the Carlist War or the
Napoleonic Wars end in such a period.
However, what happens in the period that follows?
So, this continuity of violence and
certain social dynamics that occur
in war contexts continues during the
post-war period, not only in all those
studies on, let's say, the more
psychological aspects, which is my
current research focus, but also other aspects.
In other words, there is not such a clear separation between war and peace.
When an armistice is signed, peace does not begin; quite the opposite.
You simply have to, for example, read the book
by what seems to me to be one of the best historians
in Europe, which is called Savage Continent,
the Spanish translation, and in which he observes,
in which he analyzes the violence after the
signing of the peace treaties and the violence
that the Allies perpetrated against the Italians,
against the French Allies, against the Italian
Fascists and against all those who had
collaborated with Fascism.
This can be applied to the 19th century in a way, uh, Clara. It's
something that's being applied more and more.
The work of Álvaro París, for example, is increasingly
directed in that respect, as are the works of
Alberto de Pablos, also from Complutense
University, and in some way, in those analyses of
armed conflicts, there is a relationship.
If we look at the Spanish case, there are, let's say, some
authors who collect what is being worked on abroad.
Well, I have to mention the case of
Javi Rodrigo, who has written several
books, recently he wrote a book called The War.
Well, a book that is in the present and past,
published in the year 2025, which is a
theoretical book about armed conflicts.
There Eduardo González Callejas, José Manuel Seijas.
James Macías in the one in which they include
all these aspects that he talks about and what
is the situation, let's say, between what is
written in the world, in the historiographical
world, that is, the role of combat experience,
the culture of war, the ideology or lack thereof
of the combatants, the role of veterans and
memory, emotion, trauma, subjectivity.
What is its role, let's say, in fiction, especially of the 19th
century, which is where I think historical fiction predominates
in Spain, since there is very little historical
fiction, discounting the civil war, eh?
In Spain?
Well, for me, very little.
And that is, let's say, the big problem.
I have spoken of the texts of Pérez Reverte, who is perhaps the
great EH, not the great literary man, but the great salesman of that historical
period.
Are there others that follow the same line
and that I don't think address, let's say,
these aspects that are being discussed?
Perhaps for the Civil War there are some more changes, in
this case of this collaboration by Paco Cerdán mainly
because I do think that it touches on these more social aspects.
I probably wouldn't include myself
personally, but I would include him.
But Pérez-Reverte, despite that, well, no, he doesn't enter into fiction.
Not about the 19th century either.
I think that 19th-century fandom doesn't analyze
that, let's say, that complexity of the combatant
as it can appear in the 20th century, uh, books, for
example, like Christopher Brown's and that had
an excellent one-hour documentary.
That is to say, and I recommend to everyone that
it is called Ordinarily, in which several authors
participate such as Knights, the psychologist,
as can be Eh, eh eh himself.
Robert Gervas, huh?
Oh, and Christopher Browning, in which they analyze why the soldier
kills and what the psychological consequences are.
Uh, they don't appear. The role of the sources also has a big influence.
I think that for other social contexts we have a variety
of more important sources, but these
sources are, let's say, fundamental.
And here, uh, let's say, uh, the diaries, the,
uh, the writings about the war experiences focus
more on vindicating the heroic aspects, because
that was what I really expected.
Society, let's say, find.
And we have, let's say, that problem and that,
that lack, let's say, perhaps of sources.
It is true that there are very relevant sources that channel, let's
say, the harshness of war, but perhaps they are not, let's say, represented in
books.
And then another part of the fiction that I think is important is its, let's say,
political aspect.
In this case we see how there is a, a, let's say, a setback.
While there has been progress among certain
authors, there has been a setback on the part of
political parties such as Vox, which includes
supposedly heroic acts by certain figures
from the 19th, 18th, and 17th centuries.
To once again reclaim, let's say, that
idea of ​​the nation as something,
let's say, uh, intrinsic.
And what about the selflessness of those soldiers who are
able to motivate themselves, to see the role of that
mutilated soldier as something positive, huh?
And that vindicates the role of, let's say,
the nation, that is, that nation, uh, uh,
mutilated in some way is discursively picked
up by the new far-right parties, not only by
VOX, but also if we can analyze the speech of
Nigel Farage in the United Kingdom, it picks
up many of these aspects of the heroic
battles of the British Empire.
It also appears in some cases in some of
Le Pen's speeches and in some way distorts
in the public sphere what a war really
means and therefore, as a final conclusion,
I think there is a lack of understanding
about what the war was, what a war really
is and what is believed to be a war.
And I think that diversity and difference
is one of the aspects to improve, right?
Which way?
I think the way forward is to continue making good history, to
make a history that is accessible and that has, let's say, a
bridge between those who make fiction and those of us who make
history, let's say as a discipline, so that in that fiction
these aspects, let's say, negative aspects of what armed conflicts are,
appear.
And that concludes my remarks.
And if I run away, I'll apologize because I have a class,
because in the third year we're very modern and we take
humanities courses for other disciplines and they
schedule it for us at lunchtime, so maybe I have to
leave and not be in the debate session.
That concludes my statement.
Thank you so much for everything, and I hope it was
helpful and relatively interesting.
Thank you so much.
Well, thank you very much.
So, you've brought up the relationship
between history and literature
to address the war, huh?
And in your historiographical journey you have
raised two issues that I think are important.
One, the step from somebody to nobody to the study of somebody to nobody.
And on the other hand, uh, something that uh seems to me also
noteworthy and that belongs to the criticism, an important
historiographical criticism within the studies of military
history, which is when the war ends, right?
Post-war spaces as violent spaces should not be
restricted solely to the moment of conflict, but to conflicts.
And these are two interesting issues that have come to renew, in a way,
historiography.
And as Fran has rightly said, not only the historiography about
the present moment, but that can be transferred to other
historical moments depending on the sources.
We continue our tour at our table and now Oliver
Zimmerman, from the University of Pasha, Germany,
is going to speak to us about the literary
deconstruction of a myth, the anti-Sebastiánism of Portuguese
literature.
During the war years it reached 1,808,822.
Professor Zimmerman is.
Doctor
by the University of Salzburg with a thesis
on the self-image and the reciprocal image
of others in Portugal and Spain.
Among her main lines of research, this one,
mmm all focused on the Iberian Peninsula,
cultural transfer, image-ology and
censorship since the 16th century.
In addition, it also deals with issues of horror
literature in 21st-century Latin American women authors.
With all this, we give the floor to Professor Zimmerman.
Hello.
Can you hear me okay?
Yes, perfectly. Perfect.
Yes, dear Israel, thank you very much for this lovely presentation.
And thank you very much also for the invitation to these
conferences and for the opportunity to give a lecture.
Of course, it would be much better to be there with you in
Madrid, but I'm sure we'll be able to meet again in person in the future.
I hope so, huh?
I'm sharing it on my screen,
that way it looks perfect, okay?
Just a clarification, huh?
Now
a preliminary clarification.
My presentation is not exactly about historical novels, but it
is about a 19th-century theme that unites history, reality, and myth with
literature.
Didn't I know it was an international historical
fiction conference until I received Antonio's email?
Israel had told me it could be any topic related to the 19th century.
And well, this is good, I want to comment,
but wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
This needs to be precise.
Because, well, that needs to be precise.
It's not a "Let's see, this is a series of
congresses that Professor Antonio Huertas started."
Of course, uh, it started from the question of the historical novel.
But we decided to open up a bit to everything related to the 19th century.
So I didn't say anything wrong when I told you that, as
you can see in the program, many of the presentations
are not restricted to the issue of the historical novel,
but are restricted to something linked to topics and
issues related to the 19th century.
In other words, we have opened this up because we have
decided to give philosophical, historical, and
historiographical contexts to those 19th-century novels.
Therefore, it's not that.
Don't get involved, okay?
Themes and perspectives that are not solely from
the historical novel, although the
topic or the
The line of Congress is titled thus.
Yes, yes, it wasn't, it was just.
Well, it gave you a little scare because I thought that
maybe you thought that the literature I'm going to present,
which are like historical novels, which are concerned
with the port, with the Sebastianism, anti-Sebastiánism, but they are not.
That's why he was Saul.
It seems I got a little scare when I saw the central theme of the historical
novel.
Me too.
But I don't think anything like what you think.
I mean, I'm not thinking anything. Right?
You think what you want. I don't.
It's not for nothing.
And don't worry, it is.
It has great spaciousness.
I mean, no, it's not restricted.
That's if you look at the program; there are many presentations that are not
restricted to that.
Did we want to give it precisely an interdisciplinary
character, an inter-epoch character and new perspectives
that help to understand many of the things of the 19th
century, as Professor Leira has done for us now, who has
helped us understand many things about the
wars, etc., based on a comparative work, right?
In other words, everything adds up.
Isn't it true that we're used to
micro-focusing on issues, topics, and so on?
But also, I think that we all, both Antonio and
I, are tired of everything being so strict, right?
Well, we've opened things up a bit and tried to,
uh, integrate and give it perspective,
different perspectives. Right?
Now don't feel uncomfortable, talk about whatever you want, say what you want and
be clear.
No, no, of course, not only that, I didn't just want
to communicate it, but now, now, after handing over
the program, in detail and well, that's it.
Thanks again for the invitation.
It's a topic I already worked on a few years ago.
Since then, unfortunately, he hasn't given me the
opportunity to delve deeper into it again.
Mmm, maybe it's not as much as I'd
like, but now it's certain that it
would be good to, uh, well, present
again, uh, the results regarding
this, this war, elastic lands, uh?
And that, huh?
I'm also going to talk about all the works that
I know were published on the subject of this
controversy, and there may also be, among the
texts, something that could be considered a
historical novel or historical story, or if
in any case they have a lot to do with that story,
all that story from Bastian himself, that myth and.
And that, huh?
Well, thanks again.
And I'm starting with a quote,
eh, a rather revealing quote, eh?
Regarding the quotes, I want to mention first of all that
they appear in the original Portuguese on the slides, and
if I read them, I will read them in Spanish translation
because it is easier for me to speak that way.
I mean, I also speak Portuguese, that's not the problem,
but when I'm here presenting, it's easier for me to stick
to one of the two languages, because that's the kind of
quote you'd expect from a nation where half of its people
are waiting for the Messiah and the other half for King Sebastian.
These words, supposedly spoken by the French philosopher
and scientist Baptist de los 11 Dallas Best in the 18th
century and quoted in a letter from an anonymous
19th-century Portuguese author, allow us to deduce three observations.
First, they indicate that in 18th-century Portugal there was
a considerable number of people who followed the Sebastian tradition.
Secondly, they unequivocally attest that in 18th-century
France, or among intellectuals whose idea about the
Portuguese people was based on the information that
the Portuguese followed the messianic belief, this
was considered despicable and harmful to the entire nation.
And thirdly, they imply the importance of this
phenomenon in Portuguese society, even in.
At the beginning of the 19th century, since they
appeared in this letter which also bears the name War in its title.
Sebastian.
The fact that the anonymous author speaks of a war in his letter.
In that context.
Declaring himself impartial, he suggests a strong
controversy at that time among certain Portuguese
intellectuals, some of whom condemned Sebastian
himself, while others defended the positions of that
messianic movement on the side of the adversaries.
The rejection, or rather, the resentment of
some, was so great that they even decided to
compose literary works against that sect in
order to ridicule it and, so to speak, purify the minds of its supporters.
Uh, such literary manifestations with a marked character,
uh, you anticipated, will be at the center of my presentation.
However, before that I want to say a few words about Sebastian himself and the
evolution of the myth.
Sebastian himself is commonly defined as a prophetic
and messianic movement based on the belief that the
Portuguese king Sebastian, who disappeared in battles
long ago, will return to Portugal one foggy morning to
lead the country into a new era of splendor.
It originates from a society that is not yet secularized,
which establishes a connection between individual and
collective life and supernatural elements, as well as
a strong link with religious faith throughout the
ups and downs of Portuguese history.
This phenomenon was marked by a series of propagandistic
and controversial writings that arose as a result of the
changing circumstances of different eras, explaining these ups and downs.
Also, the wide distribution and long duration of Sebastian himself.
The evolution of the myth can be summarized in five stages.
As a first stage, a process of rapid manifestation
can be observed after the beginning of the Iberian
Union and the loss of independence that this entailed;
of special importance are the messianic troops of
Gonzalo Daza who knew a situationist interpretation at that time.
During the times of the Restoration War, Sebastian
himself became part of the collective memory, with John
IV now being the new hidden figure, the hidden one, finally appeared.
After the restoration, when the situation in the country had finally calmed down.
One can observe a certain exhaustion of the myth that in the
Age of Enlightenment was confronted with a growing rejection.
As we shall see in more detail below, during the crisis years
of the first decades of the 19th century, Sebastian himself
gained new momentum and finally, after the liberal
revolution, he became established as a folkloric element of the culture
Portuguese.
Good, huh?
Let's now look at the events in more detail.
In the first quarter of the 19th century, the French invasions marked
a turbulent period for Portugal, with the absence of the Portuguese coast.
It is the most significant consequence of those
years, since it led to English generals exercising
de facto government in the country, generating
for many an annual situation analogous to that of 1580.
In that context, hopes resurfaced for a liberator or savior
for the Portuguese people, an echo of a tradition that sought
in an exceptional figure the solution to the
external threat and the internal crisis.
Sebastian himself received a new impetus, also manifesting himself
in written forms such as pamphlets and treatises.
Thus, a scholarly or learned version of the myth appeared
alongside the more popular interpretation, which
broadened its scope and complexity.
However, this time he faced strong counterattacks
from opponents of the myth, leading to a real war of words.
It was a period of intense editorial controversy that reached
its peak during the years of the French invasions, but texts for
and against Sebastian himself were published until the
establishment of the constitutional monarchy more than 40 times.
In sum.
And of all these texts I will present
below only two, the first being this one
here with the title or Sebastián is
disillusioned at the expense of José Agustín de Macedo.
Macedo was first a friar of the Order of Christians in
Lisbon, but was expelled from the order and sent to the
La Gracia convent in Évora, after repeated accusations
of book theft and of living publicly in concubinage.
After spending time in prison, his future career might
not have been very promising if his relationship
with Queen Mary I had not been so good.
It was she who made his release possible and the
position he soon held was that of royal preacher.
Macedo was a defender of the monarchy and absolute
monarchy, the purity of the faith and a traditional
Catholicism and an adversary of the Jesuits.
Liberal ideas in general, the Freemasons and the Evangelicals.
As for his character, he can be described as an intellectual polemicist and an
aggressive critic.
This is reflected in his vast body of work across different literary genres.
In total, more than 200 texts, including an anti-Sebastião Histoire essay.
This essay leads me to his play, which I want to
present to you: a disillusioned Sebastian.
The South Likes is a prose comedy with some short
verse compositions consisting of two acts. In the
year of its completion, the work seems to have had some success.
The plot unfolds in Lisbon in the year of its premiere.
The action of the work takes place over the course of 24 hours.
There are a total of eight characters who enter the scene.
Pantaleón Ángel Bello, the protagonist of the work, and Sebastián are convinced.
Sebastiana, her daughter Penteo, Sebastiana Nunes' lover.
The guru thread is about poor high school
graduates who deceive and rob Pantaleon.
José Pérez, who is a friend of Panta Liado, and
Sebastián is also there, so Sebastián must
marry him, and Mar and Alonso Gallego, servants
of the devil, eh? One aspect worth mentioning
are the textual references that appear in the work.
On one hand, there are several prophetic poems recited
mainly by Pantaleon, composed either by Macedo or by
one or more of the great Portuguese prophetic poets,
which deserves to be investigated.
On the other hand, the book Sebastián Islas, by
Macedo himself, is mentioned five times.
Within the story, it is Pantaleon who is truly
obsessed with this book and with the dog.
With it, he says that the public is creating a
certain irony through these self-references,
in addition to advertising his work.
Having reached this point in the observations, I think it appropriate
to make a brief summary of the content of the work.
The Nunes high school students and some poor devils
hatch a plan to deceive and rob Sebastian.
This part.
Far from it, posing as messengers of the King's Navy
commissioner, Don Sebastián, they cleverly convince him
that the following night the king will arrive incognito to
liberate Portuguese Portu from the French invaders so that
he can settle comfortably in his former kingdom and succeed in the undertaking.
The king needs a lot of money in this regard, and the bachelors promise
Pantaleon that he will occupy a high position next to the king.
If he gives you the money beforehand, he's
delighted to accept and leaves with great pomp.
That means wearing old, rusty armor, going to Santo
Amaro beach in the middle of a foggy night to deliver
the money to the King's commissioner, accompanied
by Nunes. Finally, the boat arrives with the
supposed commissioner, who is actually Lowry in disguise.
The result of this action is predictable: Pantaleón is
beaten and robbed by the two high school students.
Disillusioned, he returns home where he learns that his daughter has run away
with her lover.
Fed up with her father's nonsense and crazy
ideas, she refuses to marry Rosendo Pérez in
a moment of complete desperation.
Leao even goes so far as to wish for death.
But the play wouldn't be a comedy if it didn't have a happy ending.
Pantaleon learned from his mistakes.
His daughter forgives him for some of it.
Leao happily allows him to marry.
His lover suddenly becomes generous, and after that
lesson from the two bachelors, he carries all his
prophetic books and Sebastian lists.
Good.
We now read some fragments of the comedy that clearly
illustrate the view contrary to Sebastian, to situationism,
that sect that more than zero and not only
wanted to publicly denounce or ridicule.
It also seems that his intention was to instruct the viewers through
the arguments of his fierce struggle against the Sebastianists.
Let's see, then, what strategies he used to convince the public of his position.
From the very beginning of the work, it is observed that the
defamation of the Sebastián list is carried out through insults
that are pronounced openly and without disguising the problem to which they
refer.
Thus, the two high school graduates hatch plans to deceive Panter Leal.
In Nunes' opinion, they are the biggest idiots
and imbeciles among all the groups
that defend messianic beliefs.
As we see in this quote, it is ultimately Pantaleon's
stupidity, based on the fact that he is a Sebastian,
that will make the two con artists' plan work.
And they know it perfectly well.
As these quotes show, the opinion of the two
bachelors is confirmed when Pantaleon begins
to recite his prophetic poems.
However, the insults are not only directed at Pantaleón,
Pantaleón, but at all the Sebastián supporters.
Based on this consideration of the two bachelors, Sebastian
himself does not present a simple stupidity but the origin of mental
disorders.
Another point of criticism from the author is the credulity of the
Sebastianists.
The two bachelors take advantage of this to
deceive Punta del Diablo, inventing this
prophetic poem in quotation marks, and
interpreting its content arbitrarily,
establishing a relationship with omens that
supposedly have to do with the arrival of the disguised king.
The charm of these verses, presumably written by
Macedo as a satirical allusion to the serious prophetic
poems in quotation marks, lies in the arbitrariness
of the chosen words that can be interpreted
in any way depending on the situation.
Besides the two bachelors, it is Pentheus, Sebastian's
lover, who expresses an anti-Sebastian view.
In this context, it is interesting to observe the arguments
he uses to persuade her. He predicts a bleak future for
Sebastian if he does not abandon his mad father.
Although Sebastiana initially shares Penteo's opinion,
she finds herself in a dilemma between her love
for her father and the love she feels for Bento.
However, this achieves its goal and the
three flee to Bento's aunt's house.
While Pantaleon walks along the beach waiting
for the King's Navy commissioner.
On the beach.
In the end, Pantaleón is assaulted by
the two bachelors, who at the same time
strive to cure him, in quotes, by force of his illness.
Furthermore, they confront him with some arguments
to demonstrate the absurdity of Sebastian himself.
However, after that disappointing night for our
protagonist, the story reaches a happy ending.
We have already seen Pantaleon's last words when he decides
to burn his messianic books; they are as follows.
This same end at the stake was deserved by all
the Sebastianists through this serious warning to the public.
Macedo seems to be explicitly about subjecting
the Sebastianists to an auto-da-fé and condemning
them directly to die at the stake.
In conclusion, the work, after scenes that express
a partly questionable humor of fury and the use
of violence, the author's aggressive style,
evident in much of the work, reaches its climax here.
Let us now advance the second most
fought work by Antonio Pereira de Figueiredo.
The information and bibliography
that we have about him is very scarce.
First of all, it is important not to confuse him with another
author with a namesake from the 18th century, according
to the digital catalog of the National Library of
Portugal, which holds three of his works.
Our author lived a little later.
It seems that he was a man with a great interest in contemporary everyday
politics in Portugal.
Perhaps by holding some political office himself,
especially regarding the liberal revolution and the consequences it
brought.
This is demonstrated by two of the three texts
preserved in the National Library.
Yes, he was as much a defender of the constitutional
monarchy as he was an adversary of the Sebastians.
Lists.
According to the
According to the digital catalog of the National
Library of Portugal, Figaredo's text, A Literary
Dialogue, presents an adaptation of a manuscript
by an Anonymous Piense, entitled A Portuguese
Dialogue from the beginning of the 19th century,
which in turn appears to be a copy of an original,
also a manuscript, probably from the 17th century.
Undoubtedly, the author had good reasons for resorting
to that text, considering his own intentions, not
only from a thematic point of view, but also because
of the dialogic structure that is very suitable to
give impetus to the ideological confrontation
that is addressed in the work.
The composition of the work is very simple.
There is an introduction in which a narrative distance sets out the
motives of the book and writes, describes the circumstances
of the conversation and summarizes its content.
This is followed by a dialogue that leads to four conclusions.
The characters who are talking are three male interlocutors
with their own names, namely, about Aurelio, an old man.
Sebastian. Clever, erudite.
Doctor of Law.
Claudio, a liberal and the main interlocutor
of Aurelio and Leonardo, acts as an
intermediary, but in the end proves to
be a defender of the liberal constitutional monarchy.
At the same time, it appears to be the author's
main position, apart from that of Claudius.
As can be seen from the way they relate to each other.
The three interlocutors not only know each other, but
are good friends, so the atmosphere of the conversation
is generally good, but quite heated in terms of the
dialogic and argumentative development.
On the one hand, it is observed that the readers accompany
the interlocutors from the beginning, since the
characters first greet each other and
exchange courtesies throughout the dialogue.
On the other hand, it is noticeable that the parts of the
conversation are quite disproportionate, while Aurelio talks a lot, a whole lot.
Pages and pages.
Claudio constantly attacks him verbally, but with concise words.
Thus, Aurelio presents his Sebastiana philosophy,
in quotation marks, with great self-confidence
and remains firm in his principles.
Providence.
Lists regarding the Portuguese monarchy and the Kingdom.
To support his arguments, he refers to numerous authors from past centuries.
Claudio.
However.
He is not swayed by the old man's lengthy speeches.
The liberal keeps asking questions, but
Aurelio firmly defends his point of view.
After a long battle of words, Claudius acknowledges the
soundness of Aurelius's reasoning, his erudition, and his
intellectual equality, but makes it clear that he will
never become a follower of Sebastian himself.
Leonardo, who until now has only intervened
sporadically, will not take a position until the end
of the dialogue and he will be the one to tip the debate in favor of the liberals.
Let us now look at some fragments of the work that clearly
illustrate the view contrary to Sebastian himself.
In much of the fictional conversation, it is Claudio.
As I have already mentioned, whoever defames
and even insults offensively about it.
And to the rest of the defenders of the messianic belief.
Herein
The statement we see here describes Sebastianists as people
who, on the one hand, do not usually enjoy a good reputation among
some contemporary thinkers and who, on the other hand, have their
minds set on the past, without rejoicing in the current political
situation and without showing respect for the progress and
achievements of the society in which they live.
This will lead Claudio to describe Sebastianism
as a disease and its defenders as madmen, all in a satirical way.
He expresses his concern to his friend Sebastian Ista, as he is
convinced that he will soon find him interned in a mental asylum.
The accusation that Sebastianists live mentally in a
remote past is also evident in their most everyday customs.
By rejecting anything new or modern.
This becomes clear when the three
interlocutors pause before entering
into the discussion, talking about
tobacco and snuff, offering each other and see here.
Here's Aurelio's reaction when
he says "rape name for sale".
This Sebastian is here.
Although monkfish was already known in Portugal before the 19th century
and was not yet consumed in the time of King Sebastian.
With this behavior from Aurelio.
The author's intention is to humorously illustrate the
exaggerated conservatism of the Sebastianists.
Throughout the dialogue.
Claudio uses different strategies to convince Aurelio. Huh?
Let's see. Two.
Thus, on the one hand, he tries to convince him by appealing to his common
sense.
On the other hand, he tries to steer him away from his messianic
beliefs, reprimanding him for being, in his opinion, a bad
Christian and for the senselessness of his fanciful desires,
since it was God himself who made the decision to change destiny.
However, even this rhetorical question that we see here
in the second quote is not enough to convince.
Now it is the flirt who shortly afterwards
begins to explain his arguments in detail.
Only in the last of the four conclusions
given by Leonardo is the irrationality and
folly of Sebastianism and its followers
vehemently affirmed, although some of them
are undeniably perceptive and knowledgeable
about the history of their country.
All they do is talk a lot and interpret texts from ancient
times according to their own criteria, turning their
ideal into vain hopes, into a deception, into a fallacy
that has nothing to do with future political reality.
All of this leads Leonardo to clear the old man's mind.
Finally, the ideal of constitutional monarchy is
evoked under the following motto: Long live religion!
Long live the Constitution! Long live the King!
With this motto the dialogue ends and the readers are faced with an abrupt ending
to the work.
In other words, the conversation ends immediately after
Leonardo's words, and the characters don't even say goodbye.
This abrupt ending somewhat breaks the authenticity of the fictional
conversation and, therefore, the illusion of the work.
After the author has made an effort to create it in the
introduction and to maintain it throughout the dialogue.
Furthermore, although it is reasonable to assume, it
is not known for certain whether Aurelius was truly
swayed in his position, that is, whether he was convinced
by Leonardo's opinion, since at the end of the work the
author does not give him any more space to react, but it
is reasonable to assume that he was.
Okay.
I would like to conclude my presentation with some final considerations.
It can be seen that that ideological confrontation, the
so-called basic war and the literary works of the first quarter
of the 19th century demonstrate, on the one hand, the continuity
of Sebastian himself and the controversies that accompanied
him even more than 200 years after the defeat of Alcácer.
To want.
On the other hand, they bear witness not only to
the loyalty, or, based on the two works analyzed,
to the aversion to the desired king or the cult,
but also to the enduring nature of elements that
originally constituted the messianic movement
at the end of the 16th century and throughout the
17th century, adapted to the circumstances of the Napoleonic era.
or Napoleonic.
Analyzing this conflict in writing in a more general
context reveals different ways of addressing the
question of one's own identity, especially in times
of crisis, as well as the clash of two ideological
fronts at a time when the country was in a phase of changing values ​​and ideals.
On one hand, concepts such as conservatism, religiosity, and tradition.
On the other hand, liberalism, progressivism, and reason.
In the two works analyzed, we find quite clear arguments
for why the admirers or defenders of Sebastian himself
should abandon those erroneous convictions, which,
considering the era in which they lived, were inappropriate
and even shameful for the entire nation.
In this context, the two authors present partly
similar arguments to convince viewers and readers respectively.
They also differ in part with regard to style.
Literary style.
Thus, while Macedo mainly resorts to insults and
violence to convey his anti-Sebastián vision.
This one does seek dialogue with the affected party, in quotes.
A dialogue that was both rational and decisive.
Although the return of John VI and the establishment
of the constitutional monarchy led to a lessening of
messianic hopes and therefore also of the ideological conflict presented.
The hostile discourse of the anti-Sebastians, who formed in the
first quarter of the 19th century, failed to eradicate the phenomenon or the myth.
Thus, in the tenth and twentieth centuries, the
Tsarist Sala regime continued to use it as a
political instrument against democracy.
Liberalism, as a folkloric element of Portuguese
culture, has survived to this day.
Thank you so much.
Thank you very much, Oliver.
Sebastian is undoubtedly one of the
important topics within Portuguese
historiography, not only from 16-17, as you have placed it.
If not the famous songs of Bandar to Father Vieira,
etc., how else can this all come together?
And that's where it's very important.
Some authors such as Roca Tallada, such
as Vilanova, etc., did not include
The rescued triad of Vilanova.
And as that has been shown to us, as that is
received, as that is received in the 19th
century,2 texts precisely anti Sebastian ISTAS in.
Therefore, I don't know if we have one question or two in
We have two in
Constituent themes of Spanish and
Portuguese cultures. Right?
Neuroticism and Sebastianism.
If we were to choose two important
topics in both countries,
these would surely be them.
Which ultimately leaves us with a table.
Very.
Fertile ground for the questions and reflections we expect.
Now.
Can you hear me? I just saw, I think, a
comment from Carlos Mata in the chat.
I don't know if that's a question.
Now I'll get it back.
I wanted to congratulate Alejandro first of all for.
I believe that his intervention hits the nail
on the head regarding two essential issues.
First comes the thematic choice, not the decisive ones.
uh, like
Other characters, themes, or motifs—I'm
referring to characters like El Cid or
the Reconquista or other aspects of
the coexistence of the three religions
that have been brought up so many times
in the novel—I think deserve a systematic
study as a whole about what is recovered,
how it is recovered, and with what
intentions.
When these issues are brought into
literature, it is for the mere desire,
for the mere intention of creating literature.
There's an intention behind it.
What is the vision offered of these and
these motives, of these, of these topics,
uh, mythologized, demystifying, how
is the character viewed, uh, etc.
That's one thing, one part.
And then Professor Alejandro de la
Fuente also spoke about how these
authors had them at hand.
The chronicles could have used that historical documentation, but they did
not.
And I think it's an intelligent observation
because it's sometimes useful to revisit the
19th-century novel or 19th-century theater,
etc., because I think that on some occasion one
has an opinion or a certain something.
Incorrect about that first historical
novel, not as if it was a more historical
novel or with a higher basis of documentation
than it actually had, taking away the
works with an archaeological intention
that there were also.
The intention when diving into the past was clearly
different; perhaps it hit the nail on the head.
Larra explained it very well in the prologue to the hotel of De Enrique el
Doliente.
We have extracted this chronicle from old
texts, from old manuscripts, from old authors.
But we don't aim for reality, but
rather to be believable.
If it didn't happen, it could have happened.
That is, a search for verisimilitude, to give a few
brushstrokes of the period, but which in any case were very, very free.
The novel, the one about the Doncel, is a historical
novel because historical novels at the time were
just that, but they did not have an attachment to the
facts or an intention to document them in any way exhaustively.
So I think one writer has done two, both for what has brought us here as prey.
Pinceladas seems very clever and
necessary to start the day.
Yes, well thank you very much Antonio.
I think that what you've said about sometimes not, I
don't know if it's a perception, I also share it, about
that demonization or that criticism that there is often
towards the novel, towards historical genre literature in the 19th century.
And in the 19th century something very interesting happens in
the Spanish case, and that is that we do not have a Herculaneum
figure to call that father of scientific historiography, as in
Portugal, well, it would begin with a Herculaneum figure who then has his
school, his followers.
I believe Professor San Martín also mentioned this earlier.
Perhaps I would start, or could start, with.
Although this, of course, can be debated with Altamira,
because the one who is often referred to as the father of
scientific historiography would be Modesto Lafuente.
But of course, Modesto Lafuente would also be
somewhat halfway between that emotionality,
sentimentality, and romanticism of Zorrilla and
what would be a more critical discernment of the sources.
So, what am I getting at with all this that we're saying?
Well, there is criticism of the 19th-century historical novel.
We would have to analyze why as well, but, but science, history.
In that sense, if the criticism is directed towards the
historical novel, it is directed towards the question
of purism or towards archival rigor, eh Of course,
historical science at that moment, at the moment in
which it is published, eh Zorrilla's book
and many others, we are talking about 1843.
Of course, historical science does not live up to what we understand by that
rigor or that modern science, or more, that more contemporary science of today.
So, I think that's interesting and it certainly opens up a lot of room for
debate.
And then, regarding what you were saying about the Gothic
myth, well, I think that beyond the issue of demystifying
myths, which can also be very laudable and very legitimate,
what is also interesting, or at least what interests me in
particular, is the adaptability that these myths have had since their
emergence.
Yes, as I said strictly speaking, we could
talk about Isidore of Seville or 711,
if you will, up to the present day.
Because when you analyze that myth in depth, it goes
far beyond political considerations.
Of course, the Gothic past has been used to justify political
actions, and that has probably been one of them.
That has been the predominant use, its basic use.
But it's also worth getting into the nuances.
What's interesting, and I think what's truly relevant, is
to delve deeper into each era within that context and also see
that this Gothic myth or this neuroticism, if in general
terms, without alluding to the Gothic myth, is also linked
to the artistic, it is also linked to the cultural, to the ethnic.
We used to talk about the question of virtues, the question of nobility.
That is to say, we are Goths, we Spaniards who have something of the Goths
are not Goths.
These are issues that arose in the 19th century, but to this
day, even today, in some veiled or fictionalized way, these
questions continue to be raised, and not only from a political point of view.
Another matter entirely, and this would certainly warrant
another conference, is analyzing those historical novels
that originate from Visigothic Spain because they also draw
from these texts we have seen today, but also from a much earlier
Neo-Gothic tradition. I understand that these historical
novels also seek to connect that past with the present and
speak to us about ourselves, to say what has been the survival
of the Goths, what survives of that Gothic identity in us.
So?
Well, that could be interesting too, and I think it's
worth analyzing from a social science point of view.
In other words, no, I couldn't agree more.
That's why I was telling you about
the need for a systematic study on
the matter. I've sent you about
fifty novels to your email, so I
entrust you with that study.
Yes, I understand that he has the foundation; he is the right person to do
it.
Furthermore, Professor Mateo Induráin had made a note
regarding some bibliographic references for.
For Professor Leira, who had to leave us because he had class
as he said, but we will provide him with his information by
email, and we give many thanks to Professor Matta for being with us this
morning.
And if Professor Barros San Martín Barros has nothing
more to add, does he want to say something else, huh?
We're closed. What do you think?
I wanted a couple of things, especially for.
For Oliver in, uh, uh.
Sure, uh.
Sebastianism in Portugal has a vigor.
Huh, big, huh? Mmm.
Similar to what Antonio and Alejandro were talking about.
But, uh.
Why do you think that in this 19th century,
uh, these anti-Sebastian ideas appeared?
In other words, because those two works that you, that you're talking about,
uh, they try to
to combat Sebastianism.
And then, of course, despite all this, socialism
is still something that has been used
to this day, unlike neuroticism.
So, huh? Why is that?
Let's see if you can explain, okay? Yes, yes.
Thank you for the question.
That's a very good question. Huh?
Me. It seems to me that.
It has to do with different, different reasons.
The first one will surely be that.
What, what?
Did something like a Sebastian-ism
form, and scholarly works also in
favor of Sebastian himself, having
messianic hopes and such?
uh and during
Especially during these years of crisis,
when the French invasions were taking place,
these works were also published, right?
And some intellectual authors
with, well, with different,
with different, political
interests, so to speak.
It seems that they were in a
situation or position of
defending their position by
criticizing these vain hopes,
this stupidity, this irrationalism.
And it was also because of the time, that
is, as I mentioned at the end of the
presentation, the two, that is, the ideal
values ​​or ideological fronts that we
find in that time such as conservatism,
religiosity, tradition versus liberalism,
progressivism, reason, uh, it also has
to do with this and it is interesting.
I still have to look for it.
Would I really be interested if the quote I showed at the beginning...?
ST What else could you expect from a nation, huh?
I haven't found this one by this French philosopher yet.
There are a lot of them.
I mean, this one.
This philosopher wrote a lot of
books, uh, a whole library.
And it would be very interesting to find this quote as well.
His mmm.
I don't know if it's in a letter, eh, I
haven't found it from him yet, eh?
But one also sees a cultural and
philosophical orientation towards France.
which is noticeable,
It became increasingly strong at the end of the 17th
century, after the time of the Iberian Union, but especially
from the 18th century onwards, that is, the orientation
of Portuguese intellectuals towards France.
And that's why there are no,
no, uh, no, uh, no coincidences
that it be a
A French philosopher, huh?
What is
which is cited in this context, since these anti-Sebastian
authors seem to have also really had,
Huh? Well, huh
They saw it as also as a common good, as a
good for the State to think or leave these,
uh these erroneous thoughts, erroneous
from another era, from some remote
centuries, and orient themselves towards uh.
Yes, then, in the direction of liberal
progressivism, or in the case of
Macedo, towards the current monarchy,
that is, the one of the moment, right?
In other words, he doesn't run away,
because having such hopes for a savior
is also a type of escapism, it seems to me.
having,
Well, uh.
Mmm, uh, I mean,
Because going, being able, even being able
to solve the current problems of that time,
only in another way, and not with
hope or with bullets of hope in a
in a uh,
in a mythical savior, so to
speak, a king from three centuries ago.
Huh? Mmm.
Am I going to answer you, huh?
And that's how I connect with Alejandro.
Look, Alejandro, I don't know if
you agree or disagree, huh?
Mmm mmm eh, eh.
And so the reflection with Alejandro.
Look at that, huh?
I don't know if you disagree, huh?
Well,
I think it's okay now.
So, negativity has been
seen in Spain, huh?
As part of that conservative religious
structure that was showing us, huh?
Not until today?
So, from the beginning of our conservative,
religious upbringing, we were taught that
when.
Mmm, uh, when it is explained to us, when it is
explained to us how we have to read Isidore, it
is told to us when he is referring to Spain.
Is Hispania, as you want to call it, being referred to from a geographical
point of view?
No, he's not referring to it from any point of view.
To put it more clearly.
Over time, I've realized that's a
misinterpretation, because what they want
to avoid at all costs is something starting
there that they're worried might happen later.
In the 19th century, where they also deny it, that it is the Spanish nation. Right?
Sure, huh?
When Isidore creates.
The history of all the Goths, etc., is not
being created; only the Gothic people create.
It's not the first time.
Spain, as Esparza and other conservatives say, is indeed a
kingdom that he endows with an identity, and a Christian identity.
And there's a mentality there.
There is the recognition of a way of thinking,
ah, the recognition of a Gothic kingdom,
etc., which we can then quickly see in the
Asturian chronicles, in all the
Castilian chronicles, etc., etc.
Until.
What you've shown, right?
So, uh.
Well, we have been taught from that
progressive, scientific,
etc., position to deny.
In other words, we're back to what we were talking about at the
beginning, how two elites, uh, deny us the
possibility of interpreting the sources freely.
Mhm. That is to say, we don't necessarily have to see theology
in the Goths, etc., but we do have to see its use.
And since the conservatives have appropriated that neuroticism and since
the
others are going against that new dynamism, I don't care about the opinion
of either side.
I think there's something more to it than just a geographical
issue, regardless of what they tell me, right?
And I think that the same thing happens a bit with Sebastián Ismo.
It is the creation of a series of mindsets.
And on another note, I also want to congratulate Alejandro
on, uh, the importance of Herculaneum, right?
He's an absolutely phenomenal author, isn't he?
And I want to ask you, is there a lot of work on Herculaneum in Spain?
And in Portugal, huh?
Do they work on it?
Because I get the impression that they see him as a role model,
But I don't know if.
It was very well done. Wasn't it?
And nothing more.
That's kind of what I want to say too, in response to what you were saying, Oliver.
I mean, I think that many times those, uh, progressives
versus conservatives, religious versus anti-religious,
uh, all they do is place us in two camps, uh?
The one you have to assign yourself to, right?
And I get the impression that Sebastianism is something more complex in
the
end than simply assigning oneself to one side or the other.
Just like neuroticism, although we want to put it in a simpler way, it is
something more complex.
Yes. Mmm.
Well, I don't know if Oliver wanted to start or comment
on something, or if you're not processing it at the moment.
Ah, okay, fine.
Well, firstly, from my side.
Well, it is true that as a historian I have kept
myself somewhat apart, or I try to keep myself
somewhat apart, from political considerations,
from impositions, if there are any, eh?
Regarding the way of viewing the past, its uses or abuses.
I try not to talk about abuse, although it probably exists, I don't want to deny
it.
Neither.
And I try, at least not in my main line of thought or my interest
or concern—which I have—not in a legitimate way. The.
The idea of ​​questioning the origins of the
nation or the issue of demystifying certain
phenomena that are still present.
Mind you, this demystification is probably necessary, because
evidently, and as I said before, these myths have an operational force.
These are myths that, although they have
no basis in fact, condition us and influence
the way we look at the past.
I don't want to, I don't want to give any ideas either, but it is true
that the influence of Isidore of Seville throughout the entire
medieval century, practically up to the present day, is truly tremendous.
But why do they find something to hold on to there, huh?
Because it is true that criticism is possible.
It is not true that Spain exists as a political entity,
much less could it be called a nation-state.
But well, nationalism always seeks something,
a myth, an origin, something that can be a powerful tool.
And in that sense, when he speaks of a unity, when he speaks
of a symbiosis between a people that is already like a
people, he already calls it Spanish, eh?
And a territory that truly does not correspond to the borders of Spain.
Well, they cling to that, but it is true that this varies
over time, and in the case of Spanish nationalism in the
19th century, and even the 20th century, we see that what
is mainly claimed is the Third Council of Toledo.
Because what is of primary interest is the Catholic religion as, as, as
a foundational myth in many school textbooks during the Franco regime.
Although we often think that the Goths, being the origin of the Spanish
nation, and that the Goths have generally been well treated during
Francoism, especially in that first Francoism.
It is true that the Goths also generate some cognitive dissonances
because, among other things, let's not forget that they were
pagans, they were Arians, among other issues.
For.
For those who want to defend Spanishness or the origin of the Spanish
nation in the Visigothic period, the Visigoths themselves, eh, were the ones
who
eh with his
Their lack of morality and their sins caused the country and the nation to be
lost.
So, well, it's handled somewhat loosely and used, as history
has always been used, from a political point of view in accordance with the
interests.
So, well, I don't know if Spain was born as a
cultural nation or as a political nation in the 19th century.
I obviously, from a political point of view, mmm,
I don't think so, but from a cultural point of view, neither.
I'm not very interested in getting into that either, because I
think that I, as a historian, can't contribute much.
I don't know if I'll be able to contribute anything, or if this will be
significant.
I mean, because I have the.
Probably a strange perception that as a historian,
although I have a certain platform, I could have a certain megaphone, huh?
My ideas will not be taken into account.
So I don't know to what extent I think this is already entering into another
debate.
I don't know if the fact that I can go there to demystify, uh,
issues like the Gothic myth, beyond the time it would take
me and beyond the studies, that would completely change my
line and my efforts if I would really achieve something.
I think there are also very, very well-prepared people, and I think
that also from the historical novel itself, although it is true that
the historical novel, from what I have read, probably defends or is
more in tune with that Gothic myth. It would also be interesting if the
historical novel were to work on it, as Herculano has done, because
Herculano is interesting, because it captures that Gothic past,
something that in Portugal anyone who ventures to open a history book
of Portugal will realize that the Gothic period is an absolute silence.
And it's interesting because Herculaneum reflects the past.
Godo probably makes it his own, he does it as part of Portuguese history.
Because let's not forget the past, the Goths are also part of history.
The history of Portugal, be it, if we want to say it, what was not there, but
is part of it.
But Herculano, eh? He always defends Portuguese particularities.
He does not defend that Gothic myth in the same way that the Spanish
myth is defended from a nationalist point of view.
So, I think it would also be interesting to consider the historical novel
from the perspective of literature, especially now that we are at a
conference on historical novels.
That past will also be addressed, not from a nationalist point
of view, if we didn't want to, but from a broader, more flexible point of view.
Don't know.
And I think that would also be a way to counteract what we might
consider to be pressure, a way of imposing a story, because
in the end, politicians—maybe I'm wrong.
I don't know what you think, but I believe that politicians have the main
platform.
They are the ones who reach society the most, and I think that
other types of figures, such as teachers,
researchers, and even novelists, reach less.
So, one way to counterbalance the current predominance of
the Gothic myth from a political point of view, uh, well, it
could be through the historical novel, I don't know, it just occurs to me.
Oh well.
Well, uh, I don't know if there are any other questions.
I just want to clarify one thing.
Francoism, huh?
Remove the Goths from the map and replace them with Christianity.
That's what he does.
They take him outside because it's more in their interest.
In fact, neuroticism as such in Francoism is interrupted
and shifts towards Christianity.
Within the consideration
of neuroticism there is, uh
in uh mmm
An idea that I suppose also leads us to socialism, and
it is the political appropriation of the term and the use of the term, right?
And that's what you've shown a little bit of, and
I think with this we can say goodbye.
If you agree, we can leave it here.
I don't know if you want to add anything, and if not, well, we'll say goodbye and
move on.
Later in the afternoon.
Yes, well, not only for Oliver, eh?
I'd like to tell you, I don't know if you've studied this or considered it.
The idea of ​​crossing Sebastianism or studying the echoes of
Sebastianism by, for example, in the Holy Roman Empire with
Frederick Barbarossa, or taking it into account with the Marble
Emperor in Greece, in the Byzantine Empire or in the case of Valencia, or in
the case of.
Not in good ways, but in many other contexts?
Of these sleeping kings.
I don't know if it might be interesting to do a kind of comparative literature
or to evaluate them, in their contexts and with their specific particularities,
right?
Huh? How does it reproduce?
Because perhaps there can be some kind of synergy and that synergy
can also help to understand Sebastianism itself, a phenomenon,
I don't know if perhaps Sebastianism itself has also been seeing
throughout from the 16th century to the present day other
Sebastianisms out there other similar phenomena.
I don't know if he's considered it or not yet, not yet.
But thank you very much for the proposal.
As I was saying, I would have liked to delve much deeper into this
whole topic and into Sebastianism, in case there is any missing information.
As I was saying, they are.
According to this publication, about 40 texts.
Not all of them will be literary, but I suppose
I'll find some more from that time, from the
first quarter of the 19th century.
And you're absolutely right, too, huh?
A comparison with, uh, with other
sleeping kings, uh, mythical ones, uh?
It would be necessary to think also perhaps about
just for the 19th century, the century of, uh, the
so-called century of nationalism.
I don't know if there's a commune or a surge of these myths there, and so on.
But of course, you're right, a
comparative chronology between
different mythical kings of
that style would be fascinating.
Yes, yes, but when you say, let's
see when I have the time to do this.
Thank you so much.
Okay, thanks, Oliver. Huh? Mmm.
So you can see you're not the only one who
doesn't talk about novels, huh? I'll meet
you at 4:00 PM for table two, "Thought in the 19th Century," huh?
And there we will reopen the classroom and the connections.
Thank you very much. Goodbye.